tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15264500.post5140422822307565905..comments2023-07-11T05:13:06.461-06:00Comments on Morehead's Musings: Muck and Adeney: Christianity Encountering World ReligionsJohn W. Moreheadhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01262542253787543738noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15264500.post-77994260522558812922009-03-09T08:48:00.000-06:002009-03-09T08:48:00.000-06:00Hello, Bjorn. Thanks for stopping by and sharing a...Hello, Bjorn. Thanks for stopping by and sharing a little of your background. <BR/><BR/>You raise some good questions. In response to some of them, I think that there is a difference between a generic cultural Christianity and understanding of Jesus and a deeper grasp of him and his story historically and culturally.<BR/><BR/>Second, I disagree over the issue of contextualization as the successful history of contextualization of Christianity and the resulting diversity of cultural expression and theologies that have resulted and continue to result indicate. Beyond this, as I mentioned to Seerkind, Christianity is not dying, even while it struggles in the West, as its growth in the Southern Hemisphere indicates (see Philip Jenkins in his book The Next Christendom for a popular discussion of this phenomenon).<BR/><BR/>Thanks again for sharing your views.John W. Moreheadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01262542253787543738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15264500.post-38405471563724296862009-03-09T08:39:00.000-06:002009-03-09T08:39:00.000-06:00Seerkind, thank you for taking the time to read my...Seerkind, thank you for taking the time to read my interview and the comments, and to leave comments of your own.<BR/><BR/>I appreciate your concern, but I hope that you and other Pagans who may share your views can lessen the rhetoric and make a greater attempt for us to dialogue on this issue.<BR/><BR/>I clearly recognize that there have been abuses in the history of Christian missions that were wrong and for which Christians should be ashamed. However, it is wrong for Pagans to equate this with Jesus and the gospel message he gave his followers to take to the world.<BR/><BR/>Second the gospel is not to be equated with denigration of the body, other cultures, or religions, even though Jesus' followers have often lived up to the abuses you rightly decry.<BR/><BR/>With this in mind the gospel does not entail problematic underlying values and Christians like me who are attempting to move Pagan-Christian understanding and dialogue forward are not basing our efforts upon the concerns you raise.<BR/><BR/>And with all due respect, the shift of great growth and vitality of Christianity into the Global South indicates that Christianity is growing and vibrant and hardly experiencing the initial stages of its demise. It is indeed struggling in the West and it is in this region that I and others are attempting to breathe new life into our theological and dialogical efforts.John W. Moreheadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01262542253787543738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15264500.post-38403704110822883642009-03-08T20:52:00.000-06:002009-03-08T20:52:00.000-06:00Hello JM,I must say that I had to take a few momen...Hello JM,<BR/>I must say that I had to take a few moments after reading this article and your dialouge with Morning angel before responding. I am shocked to say the least. <BR/>Let me tell you about me first, I am a celtic/nordic reconstructionalist (pagan if you don't know what that means) who practices the ways of our ancestors that stem back 15000 years before Christianity was even thought of.<BR/><BR/>The "gift" you speak of, is no gift at all, but a clever lie in sheep's clothing. The gift of the gospel has desimated my peoples culture and infused it with an underlying seed of control and domination called Christianity. If you would like to read some of the disgusting ways early missionaries minipulated others into following them, read, "Things Fall Apart" by Chinua Achabee. It tells the conversion from a different perspective. <BR/><BR/>How do you know that anyone wants to hear your gift anyways? Yes, I always love to recieve gifts that make me ashamed of my body and destroy my indigenous faith by telling me my gods are evil, and then being burned at the stake if I do not conform to your beliefs. <BR/><BR/>I realize that you do not do these practices any longer-or at least you want to and are unable, but you are still promoting the same underlying values. <BR/><BR/>Your training in apologetics, won't work with pagans-sorry to disappoint you-but I'm being honest. There is too much hatred there. Just as African Americans will always remember slavery, (even though it no longer happens here)pagans will never forget what your kind has done to us. We are not afraid, just cautious when it comes to anything related to Christianity.<BR/><BR/>I also understand your religion preaches that you must give the gospel to those who haven't heard it. But I'm pretty sure the entire world has heard it, and Jesus has still not come for you like the scripture said he would. <BR/><BR/>Face it, your religion is in it's death throws and your attempt to convert pagans is evidence of that. You don't know what else to do with our growing numbers, so its not a matter of how long it takes to convert us, but how long it takes for us to convert you. <BR/>Have a nice day and Blessings!<BR/>Seerkindseerkindhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05816626825245452084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15264500.post-66121705523883447602009-03-08T20:34:00.000-06:002009-03-08T20:34:00.000-06:00Hi there John, I found this post interesting, and ...Hi there John, I found this post interesting, and believe it is definetly an iconoclastic movement in Western Christianity. I read Morning Angel's comment, as well as your response. <BR/><BR/>I understand that evangelizing is essential to your faith, and appreciate your hinting that the new evangelical movement may not be so hip to pushing their doctrines on those unwilling to hear it. I was raised for eighteen years as an evangelical Christian and was schooled in apologetics and various other evangelizing techniques. I am Pagan now, as my deep understanding of the religion of Christianity finally drove me away and into the arms of my ancestral Gods.<BR/><BR/>I understand that Christians feel the need to protray the Jesus story to as many as possible, but this bring to my mind a question: why focus mission efforts in America? We in America are all well versed in who Jesus is supposedly. Even those who come from "non-religious" backgrounds are still culturally Christian. I believe the colonialists have been successful in that. <BR/><BR/>The reason Pagans will probably never recieve your "gift" is that we in America all converted *from* Christianity. Christianity is what we are tossing out with the other garbage, such as Conservatism, Censorship and other "old guard" ideologies. <BR/><BR/>I don't believe that Christianity can be contextualized enough to remove it's basic poison, or to make penance for fifteen-hundred years of oppression. No amount of cultural appropriation will save Western Christianity. Even if it could, the "Christianity" that resulted after the massive makeovers and contextualization would hold no resemblance whatsoever to it's current doctrines and dogmas.<BR/><BR/>Christianity is a dying belief because it cannot evolve, it's orthodoxy does not allow it flexibility to adapt to changing cultural climates. It is caught between a rock and a hard place. The choices before the Church are: keep the Bible as the center of Christianity, and follow it to the letter as the precise and literal "word of God", or toss the Bible and adopt a sort of Wiccan eclecticism with Jesus as the central diety. One way your faith dies, drowning in the tides of change and Pagan revival, and the other you lose the essential spirit of the law that Christians are so fond of referring to.<BR/><BR/>Frith,<BR/>Bjorn OdinssonBjorn Odinssonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12423619466723178934noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15264500.post-24050790294829126972009-03-07T11:57:00.000-07:002009-03-07T11:57:00.000-07:00Morning Angel, your comment indicates that we stil...Morning Angel, your comment indicates that we still have a long way to go in Pagan-Christian dialogue, in terms of understanding and acceptance of divergent views. I appreciate that you find the statement from the interivew "obnoxious," but for Christians this represents a step forward beyond the colonialism of the past in terms of how the gospel is communicated in cultures. You may indeed find it obnoxious, as many Christians would find aspects of Paganism, but my hope is that we can move beyond terms like these (and your use of "tripe") in order to try to understand and accept the views of the other even if we find them distasteful.<BR/><BR/>I knew that the concept of gospel as gift given, and my final question to Muck and Adeney would set Pagans off. Even so, I think the concept is important for Christians in their understanding of how the gospel is to be shared. In addition, I asked the final question so as to let my fellow Christians know the feelings of Pagans in regard to evangelism, whether construed as gift or tripe.<BR/><BR/>You may not like evangelism as "part and parcel of their faith in Christ," but to ask Christians to leave this aspect of their faith behind is to ask us to be untrue as disciples of Jesus. We seek to follow his command to share his story to all who are interested as a gift to be accepted or rejected accordingly. This has been the understanding of the Christian community across cultures and time. Granted, we can certainly do this better, and not share with those who are not interested, including many Pagans, but to ask us not to include the communication of the Jesus story as an essential part of our faith is to ask us not to be complete Christ-followers. It would indeed be unfortunate if you and others will continue to mistrust and dislike us for our desire to embrace the totality of Jesus' message, but embrace it we must. <BR/><BR/>Hopefully representatives of our communities can one day move beyond the aspects of our spiritual pathways which we find distasteful in order to build relationships, seek understanding, work together in the public square, and give and receive from each other as desired. But again, responses like yours indicate we are failing on many counts in this worthwhile project.John W. Moreheadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01262542253787543738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15264500.post-48782191002241549092009-03-06T20:03:00.000-07:002009-03-06T20:03:00.000-07:00"Our offer of gifts will not always be accepted. O..."Our offer of gifts will not always be accepted. Our motives will always be challenged by some. That shouldn't stop us from doing what Christ commands, though, giving the gift of the gospel to any and all. Also, it may that there are ways to give in the context of Neo-Pagaism that we haven't discovered; gospel gift-giving must always be contextualized so as much as possible cultural inhibitors are avoided and cultural opportunities are taken advantage of."<BR/><BR/>Obnoxious.<BR/><BR/>The tripe above is exactly what set off the pagans at the Wild Hunt when you commented there, JM. Many of them probably don't read your blog and ascribed this type of thinking to you.<BR/><BR/>As long as Christians define evangelism as part and parcel of their faith in Christ, they will be mistrusted and, frankly, disliked by many pagans.Morning Angelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16756082722300038196noreply@blogger.com