Reactions to Evangelical and Latter-day Saint interactions in book form have been mixed, with many Evangelicals unhappy with
How Wide the Divide? (especially in the countercult community), and early reviews indicating that they area also apparently unhappy with Greg Johnson and Bob Millet's recent book
Bridging the Divide. From what little I've seen, evangelicals appear more satisfied with the interactions between Gerald McDermott and Millet in
Claiming Christ, but is it possible that in a volume that makes Evangelicals feel more comfortable about defining the differences between Evangelical theology and that of the Latter-day Saints that we may have talked past our dialogue partners?
One of the blogs that I enjoy is
Summa Theologica - Interfaith Dialogue, a blog that comes from "Aquinas," a pseudonym for a thoughtful and articulate Latter-day Saint who is appreciative of Evangelical-LDS dialogue. In our exchanges he shared his impressions of
Claiming Christ and I asked if he'd consider responding to a few questions concerning his thoughts. The result may be found below. A humble reading of the following interview will benefit Evangelicals as they consider how their efforts at communicating theological issues are perceived by others.
Morehead's Musings: Aquinas, I appreciate your support of Mormon-Evangelical dialogue, and I think you have brought some helpful considerations and commentary to this topic on your blog. In our recent email exchanges you have shared some of your thoughts on the discussion between Robert Millet and Gerald McDermott in the book
Claiming Christ (Baker Academic, 2008) that I think will be helpful for evangelicals and Latter-day Saints to consider. Let's begin with the general and move to some specifics. What were your general impressions after reading
Claiming Christ?
Aquinas: John, thanks for the opportunity to offer my thoughts of on the book. One of my immediate concerns was the format. Before reading the book I thought the subtitle "A Mormon-Evangelical Debate" was chosen more or less for marketing purposes. I didn't really believe Millet or McDermott would be interested in "debating" their beliefs. I was surprised when I realized the book was indeed built on a debate format. I'm not really sure why this format was chosen given what I see as a failure of religious debates to increase mutual understanding. Religious debates tend to play to the audience. The advocates are not trying to gain understanding from the other side, but to prevail on a certain point. Despite their appearance, religion debates are less a form of interreligious communication and more a form of "spectacle" where the actual purpose is to communicate to one's own faith group the superiority or validity of one's beliefs in contrast to the religious other.
Readers of
Claiming Christ (hereafter
Claiming) should notice that McDermott is not really speaking to a Latter-day Saint audience or trying to present Evangelical views to Latter-day Saints in a winsome manner, but he is writing for an Evangelical audience. He states in the introduction that his goal is to challenge Millet's "assertion" that the Christ of the Latter-day Saints is essentially no different from the Christ as viewed by Evangelicals. In doing so, McDermott is engaging in classic boundary-maintenance. This is actually the same paradigm that has controlled Mormon-Evangelical relations for years. To be fair McDermott does urge Evangelicals to abandon certain stereotypes and caricatures of Mormonism and seeks to offer what he feels is a more informed critique. Now ironically, Millet doesn't play the corresponding role of debater in this book. Readers should notice that Millet is not primarily writing for a Latter-day Saint audience for the purpose of demonstrate the superiority of Latter-day Saint belief, which would be his expected role. It isn't until the second chapter that Millet explains, "My purpose … is not to convince readers that they should walk where I walk; it is to invite them to stand in my shoes for a season at least, and then to be in a position to make a meaningful and informed assessment of LDS Christianity." Throughout
Claiming, Millet doesn't so much respond to McDermott by using apologetic arguments or by citing the leading works in LDS scholarship. Rather Millet prefers to relate personal experiences, stories, narratives, engage in rhetorical questions, etc., to achieve his goal of inviting the reader to stand in his shoes. Well, you can imagine the result that naturally flows from these disjointed goals of the authors and the format of the book. At times the authors really talk past each other. The book would have been stronger had the authors given more thought to their goals and approach and also explained why they choose the debate format. The introduction of the book explains very little why Millet and McDermott are even writing this book other than they are friends. From my perspective the format of the book is a step backwards. After ten years of progress since
How Wide the Divide? was published in 1997, naturally I expected more.
Morehead's Musings: You said in our email exchanges that you felt as if McDermott was not as familiar with Mormonism as he could have been, and that their exchange did not come across as a mutually interactive dialogue. Can you address these areas a little more and provide some specific examples of your concerns?
Aquinas: I should point out that in any book of this nature neither Evangelicals nor Mormons will be completely satisfied. We learned in the aftermath of
How Wide the Divide? (
HWD) that many Evangelicals felt that both Blomberg and Robinson were unqualified to engage in such a project. Latter-day Saint and Evangelical scholars expressed their lament that Robinson did not inform Blomberg of certain studies, and did not cite such studies in his responses. Such comments are to be expected. From the limited Evangelical responses I have read online, Evangelicals are rather disappointed in McDermott because of his stance on biblical inerrancy more than anything else, which I find ironic since the debate format and familiar content should appeal to Evangelicals.
My substantive concerns began in the third chapter. McDermott writes: "The Mormon Jesus is a different God from the Father; he is one of (at least) three Gods; he was a man who once was not God; his nature is the same as ours; he is one whose nature and fullness we ourselves can attain; and he does not transcend the cosmos." This language could have come from any typical anticult work on Mormonism. Indeed, at this point I somewhat find it hard to believe that Millet and McDermott have actually discussed their religion at any length. I do not find the kind of effort at translating theological terminology that I found in
How Wide the Divide?. Neither Millet nor McDermott spend much time defining the terms God or gods. Millet gives the impression that it is official LDS orthodoxy that God was not always God when this only one interpretation of Joseph's King Follett Discourse. On this point McDermott fails to appreciate traditions within Mormonism. In other areas, for example, McDermott seems to not be aware that Latter-day Saints draw a distinction between Paradise and Heaven (212), and fails to engage works by David Paulsen and Blake Ostler in regards to the Trinity, the canon, and
creatio ex nihilo. On the other hand, Millet also fails to point readers to Paulsen or Ostler's writings which is odd given McDermott's decidedly philosophical focus. At times McDermott cites Robinson in
HWD but apparently did not consult any of the important LDS critiques of Robinson and Blomberg that was published in
FARMS Review of Books, including Owen and Mosser's significant review. Rarely does McDermott cite Latter-day Saint scriptures when asserting Mormonism teaches such and such but instead prefers to cite from either Millet's works or the
Encyclopedia on Mormonism published by Macmillan Press.
Morehead's Musings: You have also said that you found the dialogue between Craig Blomberg and Stephen Robinson more helpful in
How Wide the Divide?. Why is that? And in anticipation of Evangelical critics of that book, is your appreciation for
HWD due to perceptions that Blomberg conceded quite a bit to Robinson in that exchange?
Aquinas: First of all,
HWD was criticized because it allowed an articulate Latter-day Saint to describe Mormonism to Evangelicals. This was seen as a kind of affront to the countercult movement which has enjoyed the monopoly of explaining Mormonism to Evangelicals. In addition, I believe it was criticized for the very fact that it wasn't a debate but rather a conversation. In the words of one observer, it was hard to see how anyone can "win" a conversation, but apparently critics felt there were winners and losers in the conversation. In my opinion,
How Wide the Divide?, despite criticisms, is still the core text in Mormon-Evangelical relations, and remains the best model. The goal of
HWD was not defeating the opponent but rather seeking to understand the other in conversation. Blomberg wrote not just for an Evangelical audience but was realistically speaking to a Latter-day Saint audience, something that is rarely done.
The format of
How Wide the Divide? was far superior to that in
Claiming. The pattern of "Evangelical Position" "Avoiding Mischaracterizations" "Evangelical Misgivings" "A Positive Conclusion" was extremely helpful and worked rather well with the caveat that I believe Blomberg and Robinson felt that if they were to do it again they would title the sections Robinson or Blomberg's Position rather than the LDS or the Evangelical Position. The headings themselves explained the goals of
How Wide the Divide?. The goal was to explain misgivings about each other's doctrine and also offer areas for avoiding mischaracterizations.
Claiming lacked this structure and organization, but it would have been easy to reorganize the essays under these headings. Furthermore, Robinson and Blomberg were responding to each others essay regardless of who went first in order and the joint conclusion allowed the authors to fully refine their understandings. In contrast, Claiming's pattern of Essay, Response, Rebuttal, left little space for actual exchange. The chapters offered no joint conclusions. Without a better structure I wasn't exactly sure where the authors were going with their essays, and the rebuttal and conclusion forever left the reader wondering what the other side really thought. There was always an unsettled and incomplete feeling to the endings. I really don't understand why the authors would abandon the successful format of
HWD.
HWD focused on a few core areas in four chapters. Perhaps,
Claiming tries to do too much by tackling several more themes (8 chapters) but never giving any of the topics a full treatment. In many places it is repetitive and some of the chapters should have been consolidated.
Claiming does cover issues that
HWD did not such as the sacraments and church organization, and this was helpful but I didn't really feel much engagement on point. In regards to topics like baptism for the dead, McDermott, again in my opinion, offers nothing substantially different than common countercult critiques and arguments (i.e. "second chance" to repent theory). The chapter on the Book of Mormon was quite disappointing and again superficial.
Morehead's Musings: After the release of
HWD there was considerable discussion by Mormons and Evangelicals. What were some of the responses, critiques, and dialogues that you saw in the aftermath of that book that you'd like to see built upon in Mormon-Evangelical dialogue?
Aquinas: I think it is important that any one considering writing a book of this type consult the literature. Much has been written on these topics. Indeed, one of Owen and Mosser's main criticisms of Evangelical responses to Mormonism, which still stands, was the lack of engagement with LDS scholarship. In addition, Latter-day Saint writers need to acquaint themselves with literature outside their area of expertise and cite it appropriately. Latter-day Saint authors need to be aware of various traditions within Mormonism where faithful Latter-day Saints may disagree and explain this to Evangelical readers. One of the challenges of Mormon-Evangelical relations is overcoming the Evangelical reliance on the countercult movement for their understanding of Mormonism. This has lead to a situation where Evangelicals are constantly skeptical of engaging with Mormons. Stephen H. Webb tellingly remarked that when discussing the positive impact that
Claiming had on him with other theologians, these theologians warned him "about the potential treachery of engaging Mormons in theological debate." Apparently, "[p]art of the problem has to do with the complexity and secrecy of Mormon beliefs. Mormon apologists can pick and choose their beliefs, playing up or down ideas that others might find odd or offensive." Whether one agrees with the validity of this perception, it still is the perception. However, with the effort of many people involved in Mormon-Evangelical dialogues, this situation is largely improving. Webb explained "I trust [Millet] in part because McDermott trusts him, which is to say, the book worked wonders for me." But we must take advantage of the material produced by these exchanges. For example, McDermott discusses the
prisca theologie in his essay but actually failed to appreciate Terryl Given's contributions on the
prisca theologie at the Worlds of Joseph Smith Conference (McDermott was at the same conference) which would have greatly enhanced understanding. Of course, since it wasn't a discussion for the purpose of mutual understanding but a debate where McDermott was arguing that the LDS Jesus is not the same as traditional orthodoxy, there may have been less incentive to ponder over these issues.
Morehead's Musings: You appear to have reservations about whether theologians are best equipped to engage in the kind of dialogue you would like to see take place between Mormons and Evangelicals. Why is this, and what disciplines and perspectives might add important dimensions to the dialogue process in your view?
Aquinas: No doubt readers would be puzzled by such a statement but here's what I mean. We need to be more interdisciplinary in our approach and understand the contributions of religious studies, intercultural communication, sociology, etc., in our interreligious dialogues. For example, McDermott claims that Mormons believe that Jesus was merely a mortal or that he was no different than us, and yet he cites a Barna Survey that concludes that "the people most likely to describe Jesus' life as sinless were those who attend Pentecostal and Assemblies of God churches, as well as Mormons, while those least likely to view Jesus as sinless attend Episcopal, Catholic and Lutheran churches." Now, McDermott needs to explain how Latter-day Saints, who have a theology that purportedly teaches them that Jesus is "no different from us," empirically speaking, do not believe that Jesus is "no different than us." In other words, theology should reflect reality. This is a devastating problem for McDermott in my opinion.
Morehead's Musings: You provided two interesting examples for your plea that we move beyond apologetic frameworks, even those that are largely theological in orientation but still informed in some senses by apologetic concerns, and you spoke of the examples of the Church Fathers and C. S. Lewis. In your view Mormons and Evangelicals talk past each other in these areas as they make their cases apologetically. Can you discuss how you see this taking place with these examples, and we might move beyond our present forms of interaction to break new ground?
Aquinas: It is not useful to bar Latter-day Saints from appealing to the words of other Evangelical writers or other Christian thinkers like C.S. Lewis or from the writings of the early Church Fathers. The argument goes something like this: Since the early church fathers were not Mormon, then nothing Mormons quote from the early church fathers proves Mormonism. C.S. Lewis wasn't Mormon, so C.S. Lewis is irrelevant to anything a Mormon has to say. Millet is utilizing the language of Christian thinkers and saying, "I can agree with this, this is what I am trying to say." Millet is seeking out language which might convey his agreement in certain areas. In fact, this was already mentioned by Stephen Robinson in
HWD, he writes, "When I read Clement or Irenaeus or C.S. Lewis and say, "There! That's exactly what I believe," Evangelicals usually answer, "No, that's not what you believe at all" (
HWD, p. 209, ft 16). Unfortunately, McDermott continues that tradition. McDermott said in his public conversation at Roanoke College, "All [orthodox theologians] agree that we can never become gods ontologically. . . A recent study published by Oxford University Press has showed that the Greek fathers agree too, and that LDS scholars who claim the support of the Greek fathers for their view of deification can not do so legitimately" (audio marker 12:43-13:15). I hope that Evangelicals conversing with Latter-day Saints may come to see such language as an attempt to communicate. Perhaps this is an impossible request given the strong goals of boundary-maintenance in Evangelical apologetics. However, if Latter-day Saints and Evangelicals read the biblical data through different interpretive lenses, why should anyone be surprised if they read the early church fathers differently as well? It is clear for example that C.S. Lewis held to the traditional notions of
creatio ex nihilo, however, does this automatically bar any Latter-day Saint from finding appeal in the words of C.S. Lewis, simply because Latter-day Saints do not hold to absolute creation out of nothing? Evangelicals concerned solely with boundary-maintenance can always flash the
creatio ex nihilo or the ontology card, however I do not think this is ultimately helpful for either Evangelicals or Latter-day Saints. If Robinson or Millet are attracted to the language of the early Church Fathers or C.S. Lewis, it makes more sense to me to inquire more deeply into that rather than simply dismiss it as illegitimate.
Morehead's Musings: This book presents an academic discussion of theological issues. But while such theological frameworks may appeal to Evangelicals who approach their faith and interactions with those of other faiths with this priority and framework in mind, it runs the risk of missing the mark in communicating meaningfully with Latter-day Saints. This is not to dismiss the importance of worldview and doctrine which are surely related to ethics and praxis, but what might be the (even assumed) frameworks that Latter-day Saints begin with, and how might Evangelicals begin from these starting points and then bridge the way to their concerns over theological discussion?
Aquinas: This is a great question. We really need spend more time learning each others metaphors. I think McDermott "breaks" Latter-day Saint metaphors by projecting and imposing criteria and meaning from Evangelical metaphors. I'd like to offer three examples of this. First, McDermott makes the argument that the LDS Jesus doesn't transcend the cosmos (
Claming, 75). The Latter-day Saint metaphor is that God creates by bringing order out of Chaos. Cosmos is order. Chaos is disorder, unformed the unorganized. God speaks to Chaos and it obeys. So, what McDermott really means is the LDS God doesn't transcend Chaos because Chaos exists when God creates. However, this breaks the metaphor because the metaphor only works when Cosmos and Chaos are opposites. The metaphor doesn't care or it doesn't make an issue of Chaos pre-existing as a challenge to the absoluteness of God. The point is not who exists before: God or Chaos. The point is that it is God who is creating by speaking to the waters. The point in this metaphor is that God is God because of his creative powers. The Holy Ghost broods over the waters and brings forth heaven and earth from the primordial waters in Genesis. That is one example.
A second example is the Latter-day Saint metaphor of the hidden, the fragment, the shard, the vestige, the remnant. Terryl Givens did an excellent job describing this view at the Joseph Smith Conference. Mormonism emphasizes possibilities and potentialities, the recovery of truths and lost worlds; bringing forth hidden things to light. The metaphor is that there is a kind of heavenly library. In the beginning of the Book of Mormon, Lehi was given a book to read, Angels read to Joseph Smith heavenly versions of a Bible that man does not possess. Nibley once spoke of the Temple as a kind of divine library; the depository of all knowledge. The metaphor is that of non-finality and dynamism, ongoing revelation and an open canon. This can only make sense for an infinite and eternal God. McDermott breaks this metaphor by claiming that Mormons have creeds just like Evangelicals (
Claiming, 19). It is a novel idea, made with good intentions, but it ultimately ruins the metaphor and assumes that Mormonism must behave like a religion which puts a premium on the final and the definite, on the certain and complete. It overlooks the function of creeds as understood by Joseph Smith, which set up stakes and allow people to only accept so much and no more. It is the definite; putting down beliefs in stone, unchanging, static. This is not the LDS metaphor. Creeds don't work well with open-systems like Mormonism.
A third example of breaking the metaphor, which is probably more a different paradigm, is the clash of the role of evidence and faith. For Mormons, evidence can never create a testimony
ex nihilo. At best, evidence might support a pre-existing testimony but can never create one out of nothing. Evangelicals on the other hand, claim they put their trust in the scientific evidence and objective proof that Christianity is true. The Gospels, they argue, are historically reliable and provide the best proof that Christianity is true. Mormons simply cannot accept that faith and belief come from objective evidence and proof, otherwise what would be the difficultly in accepting the claims of Christianity? This is the opposite of faith for Latter-day Saints. Faith is the evidence of things not seen. Bushman explained this well in his autobiographical work
On the Road with Joseph:
"Mormons wonder why all Christian don't understand that we believe in the Book of Mormon on the basis of a spiritual witness. It is very hard for a Mormon to believe that Christians accept the Bible because of scholarly evidence confirming the historically accuracy of the work. Surely there are uneducated believers whose convictions are not rooted in academic knowledge. Isn't there some kind of human, existential truth that resonates with one's desires for goodness and divinity? And isn't that ultimately why we read the Bible as a devotional work? We don't have to read the latest issues of the journal to find out if the book is still true."
So one of the reasons this doesn't make sense for Latter-day Saints is that it excludes a lot of people from having a viable and valid witness of the truth. It excludes all the early Christians who never had any archeological proof of the Old Testament. It excludes children from having valid witnesses of truth. It excludes elderly men and women, who may not be up on the latest scholarship and academic knowledge. It is simply difficult to believe Evangelicals who say their witness is based on scientific evidence and rationalism. As Bushman says, we think they believe as we do, but they do not. But this fits our respective paradigms. For someone who believes God has revealed everything that has given us complete and final truth in the Gospels, everything is in a final version. What else is there to do but look at all the truth? However, for someone who believes more is coming, and more will be revealed, we can't wait until all the facts are in to believe, we have to believe in something even tentatively; otherwise we will never be able to have faith. Bushman explains, "We can't be reading the latest journal to see if the Book is still true."
If you allow me to make a reference to popular culture, Latter-day Saints might watch the opening scene of
The Lord of the Rings: the Fellowship of the Ring movie and imagine early Christian history when we are told: "History became legend. Legend became myth. And for two and a half thousand years, the ring passed out of all knowledge. . . Much that once was is lost, for none now live who remember it." Now, when I say this, the appropriate response from Evangelicals is to say, "Hmm, that is interesting, maybe there is something to that, maybe LDS do see the potential the hidden, the fragment, truths that are pieced together which reveal hidden worlds, the remnant, and the ruin." The inappropriate response is to argue: "Tolkien wasn't Mormon. Tolkien wasn't teaching Mormonism, or the so-called Great Apostasy. This line wasn't from Tolkien, it was from Peter Jackson." The inappropriate response would be for Evangelicals to gather several Tolkien scholars and produce a book claiming that Tolkien never believed in Mormonism. Again, this would be not appreciating and understanding the metaphor. All of this shows how it doesn't make sense to use creeds in this environment. This thread runs all through Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. He reveals things that are hidden. The Book of Mormon is still a sealed book. The Nephites come across bones and people in a distant land and wonder about their history. They discover 24 plates among the ruins and exclaim, "Doubtless a great mystery is contained within these plates." Nephi speaks of more revelation to come, even a vision of the entire history of the world. The D&C contains a translation from a fragment of the parchment of John. The Book of Moses and the Book of Abraham abruptly end, without any sort of conclusion, suggesting to the reader that there is more that we simply do not have. Worlds burst on to the scene and then end abruptly. We are only given slices of visions here and there. Again, creeds do not work well in such a system.
One of the problems with the debate format is that it doesn't tend to encourage this kind of exploration into each others metaphors and paradigms, which is really necessary for significant understanding.
Last of all, if Evangelicals want to reach Latter-day Saints they should spend more time thinking about what is good, edifying, uplifting about Evangelical theology and doctrine and conveying that to Mormons. This is part of the Mormon mission—to seek out the virtuous, lovely or praiseworthy. It is part of the LDS articles of faith. The concept of goodness is one that Richard Bushman has tried to articulate to his audiences. In the Book of Mormon narrative, Lehi speaks of tasting the fruit of the Tree of Life. The prophet Mormon says that he "was visited of the Lord, and tasted and knew of the goodness of Jesus." Joseph Smith talked about how the doctrines taste good to him. Evangelicals consistently misunderstand the metaphor. They generally reduce this concept to that of flavor, and that this runs afoul of a kind of post-modernist, relativist position that you might like chocolate and I might like vanilla and thus we only have our preferences to rely on. This is not what Latter-day Saints mean by tasting truth. It is not a preference or a flavor; it is taste at its deepest level. In the Book of Mormon account, Lehi didn't measure the fruit of the tree of life, or merely look at it, or hold it, or prove its existence by argument or by archeological means, he tasted of the fruit, which was sweet and desirable to make one happy. The metaphor correctly understood I feel will be extremely useful to Evangelicals. You can't communicate taste to another person, it must be experienced. You can lead someone to something, show them, guide them, but ultimately they must drink from the living water. In addition, taste is a matter of discernment. We can taste beauty and goodness in our lives. Often the Evangelical position resists the notion that truth is contingent on beauty and goodness because it seems too subjective. Things can appear to be good and appear to be beautiful, but it doesn't make it so, goes the argument. However, Latter-day Saints simply won't respond to this. The gospel must taste good or it is not true. Evangelicals are free to ignore this, but not if they want to reach Latter-day Saints.
Morehead's Musings: Aquinas, thank you for sharing your thoughts on this book. I hope that the conversation can continue on this blog and your own, and that these exchanges contribute something positive to evangelical-LDS dialogue.
Aquinas: I hope to offer a more extensive review on my blog at some point. Lastly, I want your readers to know that while I have offered criticisms of
Claiming, these criticisms come from a desire to see the dialogue improve and to continue. If anything else, some of my concluding thoughts after reading
Claiming was "We need to keep talking!" I want to thank Professor Millet and Professor McDermott for sharing with readers the results of their communication and for contributing to the continuing conversation.
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